Lily talks with Mary Greenwood, a Chaplain who has supported hundreds of families through death and grief. Mary shares about her initial urge to resist the call towards this work, her constantly-expanding sense of spirituality, and how awe can be a guide.
See Mary's work at www.shanti-spiritual.com
Books mentioned in the episode: Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics, Dan Harris; Meditation for the Love of It, Sally Kempton
Lily talks with Mary Greenwood, a Chaplain who has supported hundreds of families through death and grief. Mary shares about her initial urge to resist the call towards this work, her constantly-expanding sense of spirituality, and how awe can be a guide.
See Mary's work at www.shanti-spiritual.com
Books mentioned in the episode: Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics, Dan Harris; Meditation for the Love of It, Sally Kempton
I have had so many experiences where it is clear, clear as anything, that we are going somewhere. It's not over.
Intro:Welcome to the open exploration Podcast. I'm on a mission to connect with Rule-Breakers, Dream-Makers, and all around inspiring people to explore the possibilities for living a vibrant and honest life on my own terms.
Episode Intro:Hello, wonderful people. Today I bring you the sunshine that is Mary Greenwood. I've known Mary for many years because I got to go to school with her amazing daughters Hannah and Kiah. Aside from raising her daughters to be the remarkable and accomplished people that they are, Mary spent much of her career focused on physical wellness as an exercise physiologist. However, about a decade ago, she shifted to focus her life and her career on spiritual wellness. She is now a chaplain in Summit County, Colorado and also offers one on one guidance to spiritual seekers as a certified spiritual director. In our conversation, Mary shares about how she discovered, and first resisted, the call to support individuals and families through death and grief and to mold her whole life and career around spirituality. I find Mary's approach to the biggest questions in life to be so refreshing and thought provoking. Her views are expansive and open rather than narrow or prescriptive, and she seems to really delight in finding wisdom from many traditions and practices. I'm so grateful to Mary for her insight and warmth, and I hope you enjoy our conversation.
Lily Werthan:Mary, thank you so much for sitting down to talk to me today.
Mary Greenwood:It's my pleasure.
Lily Werthan:It's great to be here in your beautiful mountain home. I was looking at your website and I read something
that you wrote. It says:"joy and pain, darkness and light, inhaling and exhaling coexist. One cannot be untangled from the other. But peace is always possible." And I thought, I have to sit down and talk to Mary because it's been too long.
Mary Greenwood:Yeah, that's kind of a big concept for people to accept, because it feels once we come into this life, particularly as privileged people, we have an assumption and expectation that everything is going to be good, and everything is going to be light. And then we suddenly act surprised when darkness appears. But it's entirely the message throughout the universe that there's always both and, and I think that's actually one of the biggest abstractions and concepts around God. We don't know who God is, we don't understand God. Maybe God is just an energy source of a positive and a negative. And everything springs forth from that in that way. Because truly, if you take it into a kind of a quantum physics direction, if everything was always positive, the universe would spin out of control. And it wouldn't be a balanced system. So that's the macrocosm, right. But if you bring it down into day to day life, and even further into the microcosm, you know, if you take us and go in, in, in, in sub-cellular, right, molecular, even beyond that, atomic level, even beyond that quarks, there's still a positive and a negative. And so why wouldn't we see that theme in life itself? So as we have life, we know there's death. As we have death, we know there's birth, and it's a perfect system, I think. So, it is tragic when things happen that are terrible, but it's probably not out of the realm of physics. And we're just part of that whole picture.
Lily Werthan:Right? How could we be removed from that from positive and negative?
Mary Greenwood:I don't think we can. But as humans, it's so hard for us to accept. But in every major tradition, and faith, scripture, all of that, they're all filled with both: the good, the bad, the good, the bad. And we hope, ultimately, for our own lights and our own spirit that we do, then eventually move more and more, you know, toward the light. And maybe at some point, unbeknownst to us, totally mysterious, the scales do shift and the light will always penetrate darkness. I don't know.
Lily Werthan:It's a mystery. But it's a beautiful mystery and a beautiful thought.
Mary Greenwood:It's a beautiful mystery.
Lily Werthan:Well, I want to come back to sort of your journey through religion and spirituality throughout our conversation. I think that that's such an important thread and such a big reason that I wanted to talk to you. And I was also thinking, there's so much life that has happened since we last saw each other. I don't even know how old I was, probably in middle school or high school, but your whole path has shifted. And I would love to hear how you moved from working in physical wellness and health and fitness into spiritual wellness. And this this spiritual role.
Mary Greenwood:It's been a great journey. I have loved the physical aspect of health care and wellness and being really
Lily Werthan:Let me stretch. involved in that. And within that realm, I taught lots of classes. And then I discovered yoga and taught a lot of yoga
Mary Greenwood:I just want to stretch. But as the teaching and did that up in Evergreen at the Athletic Club with our dear friend Jody. And when I first started taking yoga, I would get really irritated when the instructor would talk about energy. Oh, we're gonna open your energetic body now, and we're gonna create space and let the energy flow. And I would just tune out and say, nah nah nah. progressed, it became clear that I needed to have more instruction and went for the yoga teacher training certification. And I did it at an ashram that unbeknownst to me, was very spiritually oriented. It's called Shambhava Yoga, and it's above Nederland. And they also have an ashram in Hawaii. So my girlfriend and I did the immersion, which is a best because then you just don't come out, you really get it. So within that immersion, there were huge amounts of meditation and silence. And it was in Hawaii, and it was a two hour meditation. I mean, that's how long I had to be there to get a download. But it came loud and clear. And I was in a transitional place because I was aging out of the hardcore physical fitness kind of thing. And the clinical exercise physiology jobs were just not very plentiful. The girls were growing older, I knew I had to reenter the workforce in a big way. And so anyway, I got this message that said, you're in healthcare, you love health care, stay in health care, but now we need to switch to healthcare of the spirit, and specifically around people dying. And I resisted, you know, I just thought, well, that's a weird thing to kind of realize. And so I kind of ignored it, and it never went away. It was a little voice still saying, you know, go take a class, go learn more about this. And then I kind of put my big toe in the water at Ilif and began to take some classes there. And once I got in there, it became apparent that yes, this is the path I'm supposed to take.
Lily Werthan:Wow. I didn't realize so you had you started taking just a few classes before you decided to get a Master's in
Mary Greenwood:I did, I even audited a few. And then I signed Divinity. up for a few and paid and then pretty soon I entered the degree program. And even at that point, I was not sure about an M-Div because that's a pretty big commitment. But as I got further into it, it became clear that chaplaincy was the way I was headed. Not the pulpit, not a pastor, you know, not a mission person but healthcare. So I'm I just took the steps and finished that degree. And within that degree, you're required to do this thing called Clinical Pastoral Education, CPE. And that is onsite,hands-on internship. And things were very rocky at home - a lot of trouble in the marriage. And Hannah and Kiah, were already out at Dartmouth. And they said, Mom, why don't you look into an internship program here, and a time for you to get out. And I did, and I got accepted. And then that was that. And I had to, I did five units. Each one of those are 400 hours. So it takes years, but it's hands on ministry in the hospital, or hospice. So that's kind of how it, how it went. And then about 12, 13 years now that I've been on that little path.
Lily Werthan:So it was a huge personal shift in your life, at the same time as this huge shift in your career.
Mary Greenwood:That often happens.
Lily Werthan:I'm sure, once you open yourself up to one big revelation. Well, I I know that...actually, I guess I don't know. I want to I wanted to ask you kind of about your how you were raised? Have you always been raised in religion?
Mary Greenwood:Yes. We call them cradle Catholic. So I was in a little small town in Wisconsin, and the entire town was Catholic. I think there were maybe three Jewish people in the hole town. And there were parochial schools. So we went to the local parish school, which meant that you went to Mass every single day. So I knew the entire mass in Latin by the time I was, you know, eight. And everything was centered in the Catholic schools, around our faith life, and in my family's life, it was the same every holiday, prayers every night, prayers before meals, prayers in the morning, the sacraments, the big Holy Communion thing when the little girl gets to dress up in white and a vail and receive Communion for the first time. So that was all just blind, embeded Catholocism for me, and some pretty hefty theology that I just didn't know any better. But that continued. I went to all the way through Catholic grade school, Catholic High School, and Catholic University at the University, which was run by Jesuits. Marquette University. Jesuits are the most liberal branch of the priesthood in Catholicism. So they do challenge you to think more deeply about what it is we're kind of being fed. And those years were kind of a rebellious time for me. I pretty much left. And I actually fell in love with a Jewish boy and was heading to Israel to live in a Kibbutz and was learning Hebrew. And my poor little Catholic mother who was a prayer warrior, direct line to heaven. She apparently - I didn't know this at the time - but was on her knees. 24/7 praying that I would not go. This was tumultuous times in Israel in the 70s. And so she was on her knees praying that I wouldn't go and sure enough, my beautiful Jewish boyfriend dumped me.
Lily Werthan:And your mom said Hallelujah!
Mary Greenwood:She did. So then my plans changed. And I was a dental hygienist at the time. And in Milwaukee, and then that's when I said, that's it. You know, I'm heading West and I got to Colorado. So spirituality has been a huge part of my life with those deep roots of Catholicism. I still love the ritual. I still love going into any Cathedral in the world and being right at home. And now as an adult, having travelled a wider road of spirituality, particularly through Eastern philosophy, I can now go into the mass and really get it and that this is, this is a good thing. It doesn't mean I'm a practicing Catholic, I can't seem to return to that because the road is very narrow. But I do enjoy going to our little church right here in Silverthorne, the Catholic Church and then I'll miss for two months and then I'll go again, but it's really the yogic path that has led me to open up my lens to real spirituality. And I do see value in religion because we're humans, and sometimes we need structure. And sometimes people need a map that says, you know, do this, go to point A, and when you're at point A, get to point B, and that's okay. And I think religion has its purpose for that. And also for community, I mean, churches, temples, ashrams, whatever it is, we as humans seek one another and seek to join in to have community around this higher thing. So, I think I have always been very spiritual. Even as a child, my mom and dad, both were, and I had a very big dose of it. And when I veered or swayed a little, nobody was there saying, Get back on the track, you know, they were very open and loving as well. So yeah, I love it all. I love it all. If I would have been born in Kabul, I'd be a Muslim. If I was born in Jerusalem, I'd be a Jew. I was born here. I was born in Wisconsin. So I was Catholic. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. We're all in this giant ocean of source. And I say, just get in a boat. It doesn't matter.
Lily Werthan:This reminds me so much. And I mean, you probably already know this, because you knew my mom, well, but in the last years of her life... Oh, my goodness, exactly. Just a massive expansion of what her spirituality could encompass?
Mary Greenwood:Yes! Because when we were both together in the van going to Yellowstone, we were both in Bible studies, we were both really tracking with the Evangelical Christian path, which is also awesome. But once it starts to, to close you in and become exclusive, then, you know, I grew out of that too, but your mom? Yeah, she got the big, big revelations. You know, Paul says, In Scripture, as my physical body decreases, my spiritual body increases. And she was such an example of that. And it was a long process for her so we could all see it. And, and watch it. Dometimes for people it's, you know, immediate, or sometimes it's, you know, when they're in their final two weeks of hospice care, you can, you can see them pulling inward and withdrawing from their physical selves, but really tapping into what's next.
Lily Werthan:Well that brings me to something I really want to dive into with you, too, it strikes me that death is such a part of your everyday work life. And there's, there's probably so much wisdom in that. I think, seeing my mom's journey - and obviously, she was so spiritually attuned and very, I guess, creative with how she expressed that to all of us, and, you know, she didn't make it hard to find the lessons and the gifts in that - but I imagine that there's always lessons and gifts and to be a witness to that as part of your day to day life.
Mary Greenwood:Well, in the beginning, it was hard, but those internships that I mentioned, are really intense times of training and also for psychological growth for us as healthcare providers. So we would debrief and process. I remember one of my first exposures when I just started at the Dartmouth hospital, was a very unfortunate...a young girl. 18 years old, I was in the pediatric ward and you can be in peds until you're 18. But she went to a concert and some guy offered her a little film of paper to get a really great trip and high for the concert. And it didn't take a minute and she was pretty much brain dead and ended up in my peds unit. And it kind of went on and on because once everybody discovered that she wasn't going to come back, then we had to start thinking about organ donation. And then that took a long time and ministering to this poor family that just had this beautiful child. But the point was, the girl looked a lot like Hannah. And so that was a real big realization for me that okay, how do I separate this from my own feelings, my own life, and create boundaries within the work, and sometimes it's harder than others. But I think that was one of the biggest realizations about, okay, if I'm going to be doing, you know, death work, I can't die a little bit with each of these people. And in those programs, those CPE things, we were taught many different kinds of techniques and boundaries to contain our own identity apart. You want to be involved with the family, but you don't want to own it, or you... or with the patient, you try to be present to the patient, and in a way suffer along with them. But yet, when the day is over, you have to say, okay, that is suffering. But now I'm walking home in the gorgeous day with a blue sky. And so you kind of had to do some compartmentalization. But there are a few cases along the way that have been a lot tougher than others. And then the hospital work is a whole different path than hospice, because in the hospital, things turn over quickly, and you don't have the attachments as much to the families and the patients. But the trauma and the severity of things is so much worse. So the intensity is higher there. But in hospice, you travel along this journey with people sometimes for months and months. And then they let go, and then you know, it's it's hard. But you know what, for me anymore now, I think I've been over at over 400 deaths by now. And it's not hard for me, because I have had so many experiences, where it is clear, clear as anything, that we are going somewhere. It's not over. It is not over. And my my sister who died when she was 86, several years before she died, she she would say,"well, I don't believe in anything, I'm going to a big black hole." And I said, well Joanie, the power of consciousness is huge. And if you truly believe that you're going to a big black hole, you might just manifest that. So you might want to change that big black hole to a beautiful setting, you know, that you love in the forest on Lake Michigan, and then go from there, what you what you visualized, because I think there's probably something to it.
Lily Werthan:And even if we're wrong, what harm is ther in believing in something really beautiful?
Mary Greenwood:Doesn't hurt. And that creates a more peaceful and easy transition I think, when people really do believe that there is more.
Lily Werthan:There's sort of a question circulating around in my mind that I don't quite know how to ask, but I think it's something... one of the things that was really challenging for me in teaching, and I imagine in any, you know, serving profession is what you're talking about those boundaries where you love and you care, and you are there with people, in suport of people. And the balance between that, with the ability to compartmentalize without becoming hardened. And I wonder if you have any guidance on, I'm sure it's, it's different for everyone, but on on how to establish that kind of loving, caring presence without letting it tear you apart every time.
Mary Greenwood:There's extremes of that, you know, I think physicians, and I see it in the hospital, but they are very hardened over time, because they just see too much. And they couldn't do what they do and still survive with a family and an outside life, if they let it all come in all the time. However, on the other hand, you cannot be in a position of service, giving, doing, and just drain yourself constantly. So the first thing is being able to find ways that you can nourish self, whether it's being in the forest or going for a walk or having tea or just taking time, whatever, to identify those areas of self care that are the most valuable to oneself. And for me, it's always nature and stillness. That's where I refuel, and also good quality relationships. I don't have a ton of relationships anymore, but the ones I do have are really high quality. But an example that I had happen to me was, I found myself crying all the time. And my mentor said, Mary, you you cannot do effective deathbed ritual and work if you're in there crying the same as the family, you've got to hold it together. So being a person of faith and prayer, I asked for help. And I believe in very specific requests in prayer, not just oh, you know, make it easier or make my life better or whatever, no specific help, like I am crying all the time, I need help in controlling my crying.
Lily Werthan:Please seal up my tear ducts.
Mary Greenwood:Exactly. But I got this... I was quiet, and I got this huge visual that came to me pretty quickly. And it was Christ Himself. And it was very strange, because he was leaning on his hand like this. And he, he looked like a real kind of manly man, not a spiritual guy at all, you know, just a plain old guy. He was wearing a robe, though. And he said, I want you to visualize just a tube of my light, and all the way above your head, all the way down into the floor. And you only allow what's absolutely necessary to permeate that during the most intense visits and the most intense times. And you will be able to hold back your, your crying because it used to be when I saw a person cry, I would cry. And that's great empathy. But it doesn't serve what I'm supposed to be doing in the moment. So I practiced that. And then it got to the point where I could just do it. And I can still do it in the worst of things, I can still do it. Because they're counting on somebody, usually around the deathbed anyway, to kind of hold things together, and not completely melt down into into chaos. But I have gotten the crying under control. And I think I have really healthy boundaries. And it just takes time. But you have to make a conscious intention and ask for, I believe, ask for assistance, because sometimes these things are more than we can handle.
Lily Werthan:Wow. Well, that is a huge part of it, having boundaries and being a source of light and calm and bringing it back to a spiritual space or a sacred space. How else have you found is helpful to be with people when they're in the toughest moments?
Mary Greenwood:Yeah, you know, I have my own little ritual. And when I know I'm going into a tough room, or a tough situation, I stop outside of the door. I do my hand washing, I breathe, I do a lot of breathing. I close my eyes. And since it's my imbedded theology and faith of origin kind of comfortable language, I call in the Holy Spirit. And I just say move through me. I can't really do this but you can and then I go in. And I'm not the only one that says stuff like this, most chaplains have had these kinds of experiences and would say a similar thing. We we can't do it on our own. So we we call in the bigger power almost a surrendering, let me be vessel through which you flow through. Doesn't happen overnight. And I'm old. I mean, it's taken me 55 years to get to a point of wisdom where some of this stuff is available. I mean I was living life and going for a career and raising kids and you know loving Evergreen and my life and all of it. You know living in the in the life zone, but it changes with time or maybe it changes with younger people through an event. And also some people are just born that way. You know, they're just old souls. And they get it early on. I wasn't one of those.
Lily Werthan:That's reassuring, I certainly don't have my 50 year plan laid out. Well, that is such a beautiful part of your work. But I know it's not the only part of your work. What is the part of your spiritual work that you call spiritual guidance? What does that look like?
Mary Greenwood:That's so wonderful, you know, within the Ilif program, and within that seminary experience, we had the opportunity to do a two year program at the Benedictine monastery in Colorado Springs. So we were in Spiritual Direction, which is where I think what you're referring to. It's sort of a journeying with another person that wants to explore their spirituality. And so that particular program was really a training for that avenue. And generally people who want to do that are in some sort of crisis. And they're asking, you know, what the heck, why is this fair? Or where's God here? Or who is God? Or why don't I even like God? Or I don't want to be part of God, or, and they still have this, somehow this yearning to explore. So the role of a spiritual director is to sort of journey alongside of a person, the name is bad, because it's not that we're directing. And we're just trying to go along with the person and challenge them around their own spiritual journey. An exercise that I usually start with with people is to begin to write their autobiography, however they'd like, and then go back after that, and overlay on top of that, any kind of spiritual, anything that might have happened along the way, and then of course, you with your mom's journey, and your your dad's, you know brilliance in yoga and philosophy, maybe that's part of your spiritual journey. But to try to just know where God is in your life, what does that mean to you, and there's no goal in mind, there's no end point, it's like, going to therapy, only way better. Because in the end, you know, spirit rules, it just does. I think you can fix all the problems. But until you really are in touch with spirit and know that, ultimately, we're an observer, ultimately watching the drama of our lives unfold. And when you can retreat into the observer place, there's nothing you can't handle. And that's what your, that's where your mom was, I mean, she got to the point where I think it was always hard. But I think she was still tuned in to this process is really separate from my essence. So if there would be a goal in spiritual journeying, or spiritual direction, my agenda, which I shouldn't have, it would be to get people to be still and quiet for at least 20 minutes a day. And then these things begin to happen. I mean, there's brain changes. And it's not just woowoo stuff, it's physiological change. There's a portion of the brain that lights up as spirituality increases, in the old amygdala, where survival is, it doesn't light up.
Lily Werthan:It quiets down? I love that. I've been kind of at the beginning of my meditation journey and starting out small.
Mary Greenwood:It's everything.
Lily Werthan:It's amazing. I'm in a personal challenge right now to meditate 100 days in a row. I actually have done this a few times, and I want to make it, you know, an ongoing part of my life. And I have been blown away I think exactly what you're saying that when I take the time to let my amygdala shut down, and that voice that says, What are you thinking, what's your plan? What are you gonna do...
Mary Greenwood:the laundry? groceries, you know, I mean, that's how it is right?
Lily Werthan:For that just to slow down. And I think I have this... this new faith, I guess, to put it in a simple way that I know I can be honest with myself and that I will be and so whatever comes at me sideways that I can process that in a way of really listening to what my... whatever it is, what my spirit is telling me is right.
Mary Greenwood:Yeah, I think that is the beauty of meditation. We're always going to have the thoughts coming in, but if we can watch them like scenes in a movie, just let them pass by, and then return to the breath. And, you know, you can have 1000 meditation sessions, and maybe have a split second of something great. You know or maybe never, but it through the process, things do change, the body's happy, it's calming down, and even the cellular changes are amazing, your immune systems go up the, the blood pressure goes down, and I mean, it's a big deal. And then when all that happens, then the spaciousness is there for more of that energetic anatomy to really do its thing. And then that's where I think the big downloads come, the comfort comes, and most importantly, the peace. That's what I meant when I say peace is always possible. But we have to be familiar enough with being the silent witness. Watching the drama. That's not easy.
Lily Werthan:No, and I think it can be intimidating at first, too .I think this certainly was not my first exposure to meditation because you know who my parents are. But I picked up a book at a local bookstore called Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics.
Mary Greenwood:Oh, really?
Lily Werthan:And I'm forgetting his name. It's Dan something. I'm sorry that I'm not giving credit, but I'll link it.
Mary Greenwood:I have a book called Meditation for the Love of It.
Lily Werthan:Oh, I'd love to read that also. But I remember what are the most helpful and kind of obvious in retrospect, one of the most helpful things he wrote about was, when you recognize those thoughts popping up, it's not that you are failing at meditation, that's the whole success. You caught it.
Mary Greenwood:It is. You're looking at it.
Lily Werthan:You're tuned in enough to recognize the brain chatter. And that's, you know, that's such an important step and allowing that brain chatter just to settle.
Mary Greenwood:And who is that? Who is that that's watching the brain chatter? That's the question. That's the yoga, bringing those two together. I like to think of it, it's not the best analogy, but if all of our thoughts in our lives and everything tangible and going on is the orchestra, a big Symphony Orchestra, right, all kinds of music, things going on at once, many different notes being played in that the symphony is going on, well, there has to be a conductor, conducting all of that business going on. And that's kind of the the mental piece that the orchestra itself, it's just the physical crazy, but the conductors sort of the mental piece, but who's the director behind the curtain? You know, that's really that's where it comes from? And that's abstract, but it's possible to, to realize that. Yeah.
Lily Werthan:Well, going back to that kind of spiritual directing and what that means, you also wrote about on your website, this kind of looking at encounters with the divine that you're looking for those in someone's life journey. What do you mean by that? What are examples?
Mary Greenwood:What words did I use exactly? Do you have it?
Lily Werthan:Absolutely. You said, "the person seeking direction share stories of their encounters of the Divine."
Mary Greenwood:Yeah, yeah. So people often will have moments of awe. And they, they don't understand it, you know, maybe it's when they're little, and they're laying in the driveway, looking at the stars. Or maybe it's when they're hiking, and they get to the edge of the Grand Canyon, and they look down into it. And, or maybe it's when their child is born. Or maybe when it's when a loved one dies. But most humans are going to be able to identify some instances along the way where they maybe have considered that there might be something bigger, and maybe we're connected somehow to that something bigger. So spiritual direction and journeying is trying to travel along on somebody's life journey and help them recognize those points, because those are points of light where where we can say, hmm, I'm really maybe not in charge. Maybe it's okay, maybe I can surrender a little bit and maybe I can let go to a bigger plan. You know, certainly in 12 steps, spirituality around substance abuse and alcohol, that's step one is realizing that, you know, this is bigger than me, I'm not in control here, I'm going to need a lot of help. I surrender. So there, I think it's a message in many of the faith traditions. But I think that's what I was trying to convey is that we all have moments where we suspect that there might be something bigger than us. And then if so, let's explore that, even if it was just a moment.
Lily Werthan:Something I've been exploring a lot in this transition, and I think a huge part of why I ultimately decided to transition out of teaching was this, I guess, this gut feeling after watching my mom's journey as she was dying and recognizing what was important to her. And I, I felt that in the chaos of that environment, and in the relentless, never ending work or that role, that I was missing so much of that awe, and that those opportunities to be quiet and to be still, and to acknowledge that we're not in charge, that there's something much bigger going on, were diminished. And I think what I'm sort of struggling with and trying to get to a point of more clarity on is that I don't think the answer for me is to sit idly in meditation for the rest of my life, you know, I do want to be in a position where I can be actively involved and giving of the gifts that I've received.
Mary Greenwood:That's a huge goal.
Lily Werthan:Right. It's a huge goal.
Mary Greenwood:It's good, that's good.
Lily Werthan:It seems to me from the outside, that you do have this kind of career and this professional life that is in tune with your desire for those moments of awe and for connection to something bigger. And, I wonder, was that something that you're looking for specifically.
Mary Greenwood:I think it's a process. I think it just develops into more depth as you go. But I hear you saying, you know, you were in the hardcore, physical, superficial work of things. And your story now has that chapter in it. And I think our bodies are our stories. And because you've had those intense experiences like that, and they were superficial and hard, physical work. It doesn't mean that there's not in the future, a huge revelation around all of that. You're pretty fresh, out of a very big, a very, very big intense journey, and process. And it has its gifts, but boy, it had its burdens, and still does, I'm sure. So I think being patient and time. And getting just the next step. this is your next step, what you're doing right now and the processing that you're doing, and the journaling and the reflecting and, and the little bit of quiet but a lot of activity to you're young and it can be out there and really serving and doing maybe you'll find that, you know, you'll want to take a certain new journey in education and go back yet again and do something completely different in more of this kind of realm. But I think it's a process step
Lily Werthan:Something similar, I think. Tell me what it is. by step by step by step. And those superficial things are fine. And obviously, in your journey, they were necessary, right? I mean, your family at that memorial service. I mean, all of your family were just to do what you guys did and Allan to do everything he did I mean it, it was kind of superhuman. Really. So you've already had a huge thing. I mean, I never had to do that.I was with my parents when they died, but it was nothing like that. They had easy, easy journeys. And I always recommend to people on the spiritual direction path start praying now for what you want your death to be. I don't know about your mom. But I think a weird theorie is called Soul theory, have you heard of it.
Mary Greenwood:We're kind of in this realm before we get here, right? And you decide, before you even get here, what big, giant lessons you're gonna take on, what challenges you're going to take on to teach others for your own growth. But you don't remember any of that when you get here. But then you live it out. And a person like your mom, that's a really advanced soul. Quadriplegics, same thing. You know, maybe maybe we come here, with, with Dharma, or a purpose. And we already know that in the previous realm, then we come to school on Earth, and we do our thing, and we do our teaching, and we do our journeys. And then we go back, and you know how to go. People that have such challenging journeys, like your mom, to me, if soul theory has anything, and there's no way to prove it. But kind of makes sense. If, if there's anything to it, that's a very advanced soul. And I believe that, you know, in the Bible, it says, My Father's house has many rooms. And I think people, people do continue to evolve in the next realm. I don't think you show up with a harp on a cloud and suddenly are peaceful. I think there's, there's more work up there. But you, you show up based on perhaps how you journeyed and advanced your soul here. You know, there's, once you get going with this stuff, there's just there's no end to it. It's just an infinite mystery. A really lovely one.
Lily Werthan:Right. A really lovely one. And that idea of
Mary Greenwood:Yeah, and I think coming to the realization expanding the realm of our spirituality, rather than contracting and narrowing down. Mary, It's so delightful to have a real conversation with so much depth. And just gives me, I think, so much to think about, in one sense, but also a lot of peace in the idea that slowing down and quieting down and listening to our intuition or what our souls already know, is a path forward, too. that all things are well with the soul, you know. So it's my pleasure, because, you know, you're young, like my daughters, and at this time of life, I think it's hard for people your age to even have these conversations. And I'm sure because of your mom's journey, it's front and center. But it's hard. It's everybody's journey in their own time, nothing can be forced, and nothing can be planned. It's all I think it's all gonna unfold as it should.
Lily Werthan:I love that. That's a beautiful place to end, I think it's all gonna unfold as it should.
Mary Greenwood:Well, let's end with one little closing of our eyes and taking in a really deep breath and just breathe in all the goodness of this present moment in this day. And breathing out any of the worries, anxieties, tensions that maybe the body holds onto and utilize the breath like that. And then maybe we can just close with honoring the one of 10,000 names that we don't understand, that we find so mysterious, so big by yet exactly right in the middle of us, and right in our hearts, and our minds as this great shining light. And we strive in whatever way we can to bring ourselves back to that place, that idea. I pray these things for you Lily and I see the bright light shining in you
Lily Werthan:Thank you. I have so much love for you and your girls, and it's so sweet to get to see you.
Mary Greenwood:Isn't it just so true.
Lily Werthan:Thank you.
Mary Greenwood:You're welcome. It's my pleasure.
Sign Off:Thank you for listening to this episode of the Open Exploration Podcast. If you like what you heard, share it with a friend or casually bring it up in conversation with a friendly stranger. However you get the word out, it means the world to us. You can also donate at our website openexploration.org. If you're interested in sponsoring the show, or if you or someone you know would like to share your story, send an email to Lily@openexploration.org That's L-i-l--y just like the flower, at open exploration.org. You can also find us on Instagram and Facebook at openexplorationpodcast. This show is produced by me Lily Werthan. The voices that you'll hear at the very end are my four and five year old nephew and nieces. Thank you to Poddington Bear, Jon Sibb and the other unlisted artists for freely sharing your music that brings this podcast to life. To all of
you listening:Thank you love to you all, and until next time, happy exploring THANKS FOR LISTENING!