Lily talks with Actor and Musician Jacob Gibson about his choice to live a creative life, the opportunity to transform our fear into energy towards our goals, and the insights that come from art.
Lily talks with Actor and Musician Jacob Gibson about his choice to live a creative life, the opportunity to transform our fear into energy towards our goals, and the insights that come from art.
I think so often, quietly we see things in ourselves or, or have a seed of an idea about ourselves. And for whatever reason, we choose to turn away from it or ignore it. You know, I guess it's like intimidating to acknowledge the potential that we all have inside of ourselves.
Intro:Welcome to the open exploration Podcast. I'm on a mission to connect with Rule Breakers, Dream Makers and all around inspiring people to explore the possibilities for living a vibrant and honest life on my own terms.
Episode Intro:Hello, everyone, I hope you're all doing well and that you're finding some balance and fun and rest during this busy season. I recently had the joy of sitting down with my friend, actor and musician Jacob Gibson. We got to have this conversation that just filled me with energy and inspiration and new ways of thinking about life and creativity and fear and art, and I'm so excited to share with you all. I've known Jake since we were in high school and he is just a grounded, happy, genuine person, as you're about to hear for yourself. You might actually have seen Jake perform - he was in a particularly bloody but awesome episode of Grey's Anatomy. He also played AJ in the hit series Greenleaf, which was produced by - dare I named drop, - the one and only Oprah Winfrey. When we caught up in Denver, Jake was about to start working on a super secret, super exciting project halfway across the world. The internet at this point is definitely bursting with this news, and Jake is already halfway across the world starting to record for this project. But I am certainly not going to leak any intel. I can, however, tell you with absolute confidence that Jake is on the way to big and beautiful things in his life and career. A quick sidebar, it has been such a joy to hear from you. Lots of you have reached out on Instagram and Facebook. And I really cherish these opportunities to connect with you. So keep them coming. If you want to send some longer winded love or scathing reviews, or if you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast or recommending a guest or sponsoring the show reached out to Lily that's li l y at open exploration.org. I'm always interested in talking to great people who have taken creative or surprising paths to a life that they really love. And that really fits them. So reach out if you have someone in mind. Anyways, I will not make you wait any longer to hear from the legend himself. Here is my conversation with the wonderful, insightful, inspiring, Jacob Gibson.
Lily Werthan:Jake, I'm so glad to get to sit down and talk to you.
Jacob Gibson:Me too.
Lily Werthan:Thanks for coming out to Denver. Not for this specifically. But for making time while you're here.
Jacob Gibson:I came just for this.
Lily Werthan:I knew you did. Well, you're not the only one. I think people are flying out all the time to come talk to me.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah. I believe it.
Lily Werthan:Yeah. Oh, man, when I was thinking about, who do I want to talk to, for this show? And just to get wisdom and insight. I was thinking about people who have taken alternate paths or who have become successful in a way that is sort of unique. And I was thinking, okay, acting, music, performance, being creative. Those are the quintessential jobs where everybody when you say, that's what I'm going to do. They're like, Oh, that's...good luck... you know, like, the best answer you get is, that's gonna be tough, but good luck. And the worst one is like, nobody makes it don't even try. So, how did you choose acting and performing and music? And maybe more to the point, what is it in you that you were like, You know what, yeah, it's hard. Not a lot of people make it...but I'm going to?
Jacob Gibson:Yeah, that's such an interesting question. And I I constantly reflect on what helped push me on this path or in this direction. And its equal parts feeling called towards something. And feeling like pushed you know, or sometimes I describe it as like, I feel a hand in front of me that's dragging me forward, and also a hand on my back that's, that's pushing me onward. So, you know, music, music was my, my first passion. I just remember as a kid, I just always thought that no one, no one heard music the way that I did, you know, I just would catch different sounds of different things and and just was in love, you know, I guess it just with the way it made me feel or you know, it's like, sometimes notes can do things that my words can't. So that's definitely where it started just just loving music and I took piano lessons when I was younger, you know, my, my parents saw that in me and try to foster that musical muscle in me. But like, I think most kids, when your parents ask you or encourage you to do anything, you start to resent it. So I definitely it became more of a chore at a time and took a step away, at least from like, the practice of the craft around music, and then came back to it in my own time, you know, fell back in love with it in my own time as, as it became more like a way for me to express myself not just like a, something to be learned or something to be mastered.
Lily Werthan:Yeah, that's so interesting. Were you playing music when you were in high school?
Jacob Gibson:No, not much. You know, I did, I did do some piano. I wasn't singing much. Of course, I had some friends that convinced me to freestyle. So that was really, I think, when I first started putting words and music together, as far as my own expression, like, what can I do with my words, as well. But then I did start singing again, just really falling in love with it. And really just, it's very medicinal for me as well, like, you know, poetry or even just the the poetry of the voice or the the vocal cords, or the resonance or the sounds that your body makes, I know can be very therapeutic. And although I didn't quite have the awareness or understanding of how medicinal therapeutic these things were to me at the time, I realized that, again, I was being pushed to fall into these these practices, you know, so that was interesting. And then acting wise, you know, my, my mother always thought I was such a performer. And admittedly, I understand I was a bit of a class clown. But I would hate performing. I hated getting on stage in front of people, even though I loved being the Joker, you know, the guy that made everybody laugh, but she would want me to do recitals. And it would just like, paralyze me. I remember, I would convince her to pay me I'm like, you know, I'll do it if you gave me $10. And that's what really broke me into it.
Lily Werthan:That's hilarious that's like, so the opposite of what you'd expect, you know, you're like, there was this love in you, but you're like, I need I need some money for this. Extrinsic motivation, to like, get over my fear of this.
Jacob Gibson:Just a little nudge. You know, I think so often, quietly, we see things in ourselves or, or have a seed of an idea about ourselves. And for whatever reason, we choose to turn away from it or ignore it, you know, I guess it's like intimidating to acknowledge the potential that we all have inside of ourselves. So I really think it's a great segue for me to pause and give gratitude for the community around me in my life that that supported me or allowed me to, to acknowledge these qualities in myself. And the possibilities in myself and I know that not a lot of people have such support in their family or in their community or a lot of people that believe in them. And I know that that sometimes can be make or break for for people's dreams.
Lily Werthan:Yeah, if there's somebody to, like, nurture that little spark in you or to, I guess, allow you to listen to that nudge.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah. Or just tell you like, Hey, you can if you If you really work, if you really believe, you dedicate yourself, you know, and, and I, again, I've just had such a supportive community and family and I'm so fortunate for that,
Lily Werthan:Do you still get that stage fright? Or did you figure out a way around that?
Jacob Gibson:You know, I am very deep in my my practices acting performing in music and, and along that journey, I have just come to understand energies in new ways and how energy manifests itself and you know, nervousness or anxiety around being on stage, I know is just a form in which the energy is is taking at that moment. And if I can give myself a moment to acknowledge the existence of nervousness or anxiety, then once I I acknowledge it, then I can kind of break it down, and, and repurpose it. So, what was nervousness can be broken down and repurposed into excitement, or was anxiety can be broken down and fed into preparation. So I do, I do acknowledge, still the times where I get butterflies or, or nerves arise before I step on stage or before the camera rolls, but I am able to take that moment for myself and connect with my breath or ground myself in the moment and allow the energy to move through me and change into something a little more useful for me at the time.
Lily Werthan:That's such a cool way to think about it. I feel like that's sort of shifting in my own head, too. Like nervous doesn't necessarily mean bad. Usually, it means that you care, and like you said, there's a lot of energy around whatever you're doing.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah, when I was in school, one of our required classes in this Acting Program was, was Tai Chi.
Lily Werthan:That's awesome.
Jacob Gibson:Amazing, amazing. So that's been something that I've incorporated into my life practice and my craft practice for years now. But my Tai Chi teacher was one of the first people that really helped me understand that emotions are energy, and you know, energy, emotion, she says, emotion. And again, just being able to work with that acknowledgement of the existence of energy in whatever form it's taking. And in Tai Chi specifically, you know, you're using breath and body movement to, to activate this qi energy. And again, just that practice was helpful in me being able to break down whatever emotions I'm experiencing, and allow it to move through me and become something else, you know, and not, not get caught dwelling in a certain emotion. You know. I know, we have a tendency to, to dwell, and on all sides of the spectrum, you know, like, when, when you're sad, like, you really just want to be sad.
Lily Werthan:And feel like well, I guess I'm sad forever now. I guess this is just me.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah. And same with happiness. Like when you're really joyful and happy. That's what you want to hold on to forever and the anxiety of what happens when this goes away, or when this feeling goes away. So yeah, I guess just again, through Tai Chi, or many other practices, just being able to allow it to move through me in energies moving so to try to hold on to a certain feeling or a certain energy without allowing it to move or transform. It's like, stagnant water. It's like the movement is what allows us to, to stay fresh.
Lily Werthan:That makes so much sense to me. I don't know very much about tai chi, but it strikes me as pretty surprising that that was a required class. Do you know why that was?
Jacob Gibson:And that, that me too, you know, I didn't I had no previous experience or exposure to Tai Chi besides like, peripherally in movies or, or whatever. But I know for acting, specifically acting it's obviously, a full body experience, at least the way I have come to understand it, and requires a connection to your breath and a connection to your body as well as your imagination. And tight chi, for me, just this, this deep connection to breath, of course, first, and then allowing movement of energy connection to body, being able to bring in a certain energy that wasn't there before, or being able to release a certain energy that is in your system. And that, that, to me, is really important for trying to take on a character, trying to take on a story, you know, you really have to clear out your own story, make room in yourself to receive something new, or make room in yourself to, to experience something that you might not have experienced in your life, previously, and and activate that energy in a certain way. Like, if I'm not, if I don't identify as an angry person, how? How am I going to? How am I going to find anger? You know, of course, you know, I use my imagination, but if I don't connect that to breath, then anger won't live, truthfully, in my, in my system, and so I can I can use breath to, you know, breathe on a certain circumstance, like, what, what is this character experiencing right now? What does it feel like to really breathe in that experience? And then how does that sit in my body to you know, we hold emotion in our body, when you get angry, your shoulders tense, you know, when you're scared you, your breath is shallow. And so these practices to maintain the body as, as the instrument for performer and actor are, in my opinion, so important for sustainability? Or, you know, for instance, after I I play a character who's extremely heavy or in a lot of pain, how do I go about cleansing my system of that, so that I can return to the Jacob state? You know, or to what, what is home base for me. And I think that, at least in my opinion, is something that has been brushed over in acting is, how do we come back? We just are expected to go there. But how do we return?
Lily Werthan:Right. You stretch yourself to like the extremes of human experience and inhabit this character that's not you, and then how do you come back to yourself?
Jacob Gibson:Yeah. So Tai Chi, physical practices and you know, it might be different for for every person, but for me, Tai Chi was, is so grounding and just allows me to, again, just tap into my breath and, and a practice that has been going on for 1000s of years. And that's as pretty exciting to me just feel like I can move my hands in, in a in a certain way and know that millions of people have moved in similar ways with similar qualities of breath and,
Lily Werthan:And maybe felt similar things like the shared human experience in that movement. And in that mindset.
Jacob Gibson:Yes, exactly.
Lily Werthan:I've never thought so deeply about this, since acting was never my form of expression. But it does seem like such a spiritual way of connecting with a human experience. And like you were saying that you feel physically in your body that when you feel angry, you tense your shoulders and so that's something that you can pull into, like your practice of acting, but also your practice of embodying this human experience. That is, is wild, I think that your whole career is such a and I don't know if you agree with me, but it seems like such a spiritual practice and like a study of what it is to be human.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah, absolutely. I agree and feel like that is part of why I don't know if I have much choice in doing something else, because it's, you know, of course, you, you learn so much about yourself your own emotional awareness, your body, your own mind. And then, and then you also take on lives that are outside of yourself. And it has definitely been extremely opening for me to really just be able to step into someone else's shoes. I acknowledge in myself, I was born a very empathic person, you know, I'm one of the people that like, you're telling me a sad story, and now I'm crying. Okay, don't worry, I'm fine. Like you go. Yeah, I learned I learned so much about just the expansiveness of the human experience. And, and, and also how deeply connected we all are, you know, I think at times that we get tricked into feeling like we're so far away from each other. And it's, it's so illuminating for me to step into a character and then find bits of myself, or find bits of someone that I know. Or am I Oh, wow, we're like, Wow, maybe I would have been like this, had my circumstances been a bit different. It really makes me see people so lovingly, or without judgment, you know? And, and listening, you know, I know so much of acting is listening, that that is something that I take, obviously, outside of just the craft, but how do I, how can I really listen to someone and the experience or, you know, Im a ceral people watcher. So I'm like, I listen with my eyes, and not just my ears, I'm like, looking at how this person is standing and what their posture is like, and I'm like, Oh, wow, like, okay, like, they must work a lot with their hands or, or, you know, or they're carrying a lot in their chest, or, or, Oh, god, look at all that tension in their hips.
Lily Werthan:Imagining somebody's story by seeing the way that they sort of are presenting themselves to the world, or even what they're not trying to present. But what's there, right?
Jacob Gibson:Or how loud does this person talk? How quiet this person talk? You know, it's like, of course, my imagination creates a whole narratives around people that I've never even talked to you?
Lily Werthan:Well, I mean, that seems like such an important practice in the work that you do, too. We, a bunch of our friends were laughing at one point of like, the Jake that we know, and like AJ, your character and Greenleaf, or some of the other characters that you've played, they could not be more different people. Like you are this person who is just beaming light. And these characters have been through some serious shit and like, have this serious heaviness to them. And so I imagine so much of that practice is thinking about, like, what might their story be, or, you know, how would they carry themselves in the world? Knowing what they've been through?
Jacob Gibson:Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. I definitely get called to play some some very heavy characters. And, you know, I learn a lot from stepping into these, these stories that are at times drastically different from what I have experienced in my, my life so far. But I feel so privileged and honored to be the voice for that, knowing that I do feel like there's a light in me. And how can I step into these characters and find a way to let a bit of that light become present even in the heaviest of circumstances. And, and there's this, there's this analogy, that, that we're born a bowl of light, and someone comes and puts a rock in our bowl, or we put a rock in our bowl. And this happens all over and over again. And at some point, there's so many rocks in the bowl, that you can barely see the light at the bottom. And how, you know, the analogie's like how can we go about removing the rocks out of our bowl so that the light can can shine through and I very much feel that for, for the characters I play or even just the heavier or seemingly dark, darker people that are in the world, who carry, you know, quote, unquote, a dark energy. To me, it's just like wow, like How many rocks has this person put in their bowl?
Lily Werthan:And how can I like dig deeper to see what's real underneath?
Jacob Gibson:Yeah, or can I maintain the awareness that underneath all that, there is this wonderful, illuminating source of light. You know, and, and I haven't... I haven't looked into many newborns eyes and been like this is evil. You know, so I, again I with the characters, you know, I can see on on the page or see the actions that this character is taking that there's some heaviness going on. And I'm like, Okay, how do I identify what are the rocks that may have been placed into this person's experience. And again, just as a spiritual practice or life practice trying to see past all all the rocks, or all the all the things that have been put on us or that we have put on ourselves?
Lily Werthan:Well, you and I both have been very blessed to to grow up with so much support. And in situations where we, you know, we really didn't have so many of those rocks placed in our bowls. But when I think about you, and what I do know of your story, it seems like you also are somebody who, when faced with really difficult experiences that could be rocks, and could darken your light, that you don't live it that way. You know, like, I know, we have the shared experience that we both lost our moms within the last couple years. That that's something that could be a huge and darkening rock. And it seems to me that it's only deepened your ability to shine and to feel on a different level.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah. I mean, yeah. It's called a spiritual practice. And I very much identify it as such as, as being a practice. And, and it's like, you know, you don't go to the gym, and you just start bench pressing, like 200 pounds, you maybe just have to start with doing pushups, or maybe you just have to start with the bar. And so I acknowledge that there is a certain muscle in me that has been strengthening my whole life. And when life presents something of that magnitude, how do I instead of allowing it to crush and break me, how do I maintain the perspective that this is an opportunity to practice? How I want to be in the world, what I believe about myself? And obviously, you know, some days are better than others. Again, it's, it's a practice, you know, it's not, you're not practicing, if you you're winning every time, right, if it's always easy. Yeah, you know, I know we have the ability to, to shape ourselves or create ourselves, it's like, you are the biggest piece of art that you could ever work on. And, and I'm, we're still working on I'm still working, and I guess what if ever, I feel like I have arrived, like oh, now I know. Or now. I'm like, hold on, like, something's gonna come and ask more of me, or push me and I, to me, it's the that's connected to whatever that thing is in existence that wants us to continue to evolve. And, and not just plateau but to continue to to climb or be activated in our our pursuit of elevating ourselves. And so yeah, I mean, losing. Losing my mother is completely devastating, and still is devastating. And such a beautiful, beautiful opportunity for me to go deeper in my practice, and and sculpt myself accordingly. You know, it's like, at times it feels like a deep cut, but I I think it's more like a sculpting. And a deep cut. could be both. Yeah, it is both. It is both. Definitely.
Lily Werthan:Yeah. And I never got to meet your mom. I've met your adoptive mom a few times. And she's delightful. But I never got to meet your birth mom. What I've heard, she just sounds like such a bright part of your life and a really remarkable woman.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah, she, she is. She absolutely is. And so, so much of who I am, I get from her. And she continues to give me, you know.
Lily Werthan:I love that. Did she get to see lots of your shows?
Jacob Gibson:She did you know, she did. She got to see... She was around for the first season of Greenleaf. And that was like, of all the projects that I had done so far, that was the the one that had the most exposure, you know, it was the biggest platform.
Lily Werthan:Yeah, you have Oprah's name behind you, that means something.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah. And so, she was so excited. I mean, she, of course was my first champion, you know, she, she saw it before, or felt it before anybody. So yeah, it was very much a dream come true for her. And now to be able to experience me like that, and a dream for me to to be able to, to offer that to her. And I know it, it brought her so much peace just to see me on my way. I know so much of the time, she just wanted to be by my side for all these wonderful adventures and experiences that I get to have. And I know at least part of the truth is that she does now, you know. There's not a single thing that she misses out on.
Lily Werthan:I feel that way too. I get exactly what you're saying. I love that phrase on your way. Like, you know, there's no arrival point of like, I made it, you know, in this in this tough career, but you're on your way. I was thinking about this the other day of like, we're still really young, you know, you, you have had incredible success pretty quickly after coming out of school. But at the same time, I don't think that people realize how many plays you've done and how many short films and just thinking about that process that you talked about of like embodying somebodies experience and stepping into this new character to do that once sounds nearly impossible to me. But to do that so many times and build your way up to creating more momentum for your success. Like it's taken a lot.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think, I mean, for all of us, there's, there's so much growth and so much process that, that takes place that doesn't necessarily get presented on the surface, you know, like, every, every day, we're creating ourselves every day where we're working towards something, whatever it is that we're called towards, you know, it's, there's a process involved. And I don't know that there is a path that we can choose that is without effort, you know..
Lily Werthan:Probably not a great path.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah. Or, you know, or, or challenge, you know, I like even if, even if I could sit on the couch all day, every day, even then there's going to be some obstacle that comes along with that choice as well. Like, I don't think that we can get away from having to be activated having to, to work in some capacity, or having to overcome obstacles or challenges. You know, I had a teacher once she was asked the class, she says, Does anyone know when you stopped growing? And you know, people were like, oh, like, 18? Or someone's like, oh, like your brain stops developing when you're 25? Or is like after puberty, you know, and everyone had their own answers. And she said, You don't stop growing until you stop breathing. And everyone's like, Oh, my God. Yeah. But that was a really important moment for me, especially. I think we have these moments where we, we feel like we know it all or we understand it all. And again, something comes in completely shakes us.
Lily Werthan:Right? Like, okay, now it's time to be humbled.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and we have to keep going. And that that was just ignited in me that I can always be in the process of learning. So I think I identify as a student really of life, first and foremost, like, what is there to be learned in this moment, or through this experience? And I know, I'm a teacher as well, I think that for all of us, like, you know, I'm a student, I'm a teacher, and I'm a healer, whether to heal myself or to heal the world around me. But being a student, and a teacher allows me to heal. You know, it's like, all connected. I know, forever humans have been learning through storytelling, whether it was around the fire or, or whether it was someone being like, Hey, don't go over there. I saw a bear over there. Like, you know, and I think artists are storytellers, you know, whether it's a painting or a song, or channeling what we have experienced into this, this artistic presentation. And then the audience, you know, might have whatever experience with it, but I think it just creates the opportunity to, to learn or to see yourself, you know, or like someone watches a movie is like, wow, that character reminds me a lot of myself. And while maybe seeing them go through that process, and come out different, you know, maybe I can do that for myself, or someone in an art gallery is like, wow, like this painting really looks like how I feel. And then maybe that's like the first time that they can acknowledge how they feel or feel like, wow, I'm not alone in how I feel. Because look, there it is painted and in front of me as well. And and I know that that that quality of not feeling alone is really important for us all.
Lily Werthan:Yeah, it also seems like we generally as people are pretty stubborn about learning new things. And if you hear a lesson, like it's pretty hard to learn from that, like, that's why there's all these cliches that we hear all the time. And we're like, Yeah, whatever. But it is a step further to see that embodied in somebody's art. And to feel it in a new way. I think most of us do need to learn through feeling.
Jacob Gibson:Mm hmm. Yeah, I think it's, I know, it's, it's really vulnerable and intimidating to admit that you don't know something, or that you don't know at all, I guess to imply that you have more to learn will also be to acknowledge that there's something bigger going on than what you currently understand or just in general, there's something more. And I know that can be really intimidating for us, especially when life seems to be a lot, just where we are right now. So then it's like something comes along, and it's like, oh, actually, there's a lot more going on.
Lily Werthan:it's it's a common insult to be like, well, they just, you know, they don't have it figured out yet.
Jacob Gibson:Right, right. Yeah. Or to admit that you're wrong, you know, these are really vulnerable places to be. But there's nothing wrong with being vulnerable.
Lily Werthan:Yeah, nothing wrong with being on your way.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah. And again, just being in process. What a wonderful thing. I'm like, if there's more to go than that means I can still make a shift in my life. Or, or I can, if something's not working for me, I can, I can move. I can try something new. I can try something else. You know, I really feel like if we were, if we were meant to be still in this life, we probably would have been a tree. Yeah. And even trees sway back and forth.
Lily Werthan:It's like what you're talking about at the beginning of Tai Chi and the like movement of energy and recognizing that that's healthy and right for us to be in movement and to be shifting and changing. Yeah, all the time.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah, we need that.
Lily Werthan:Something you said earlier, I think just really clicked for me. That there is no easy path...Rigight like there are some that maybe are more fluid or more in line with the status quo. And maybe the path is a little bit more paved, but there's no easy path, there's going to be challenges along all of them. And maybe it's more about choosing the challenging path that feels worth it to you.
Jacob Gibson:Yes. Or just just being able to stop and ask yourself, what do I really want? What do I what do I feel is is right, for me? And you know, there's this grass is always greener type of thing, where I have been around people that live in extreme affluence, and like how, like, I wish I, you know, you go to the house, you're like, Man, this house is so great. And I'm like, Man, this place sucks.
Lily Werthan:I wish I had two pools!
Jacob Gibson:Yeah, you know, it's like, and, you know, I feel like, it's dangerous to like, compare ourselves. Because we are, we're together, but we have a unique calling, or we have a unique path and, and just to try to be in love with where you are at in your own journey in your own process. And someone else might look at your process and be like, you have it so easy, and never know the hardships that you experience. You could have all the money in the world and be miserable. Or you could have no money in the world and be so happy. And I'm like, what is what? What's the deciding factor? I guess in this moment, I just feel like it's a practice of being able to really love where you are in the present moment. And and then from that loving place, then I'm able to receive the little whispers that tell me which direction to place my foot next. You know, what, what is right for me what is and we're extremely capable and adaptable. Animals. Yes, you know, we're extremely resilient. So I hope that some of the fear that can be so paralyzing to so many of us, can be quieted in the belief of knowing that we can adjust or we can realign, you know, I, my, my mistakes I look back on, there's like some of the most important learning moments for me. And so it's like, if I stumble, if I trip and fall, walking towards what I feel is right for myself, like, even that gets love for me. Like I can even wrap love around those moments. And acknowledge again, it's just a part of the process of getting to somewhere...
Lily Werthan:Going on your way.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah. Being on you way. Yeah, it's something like, there isn't a single thing in your life that you were afraid of that you haven't made it thorugh. Right, you've like overcome all the hardest things so far. So why the hell do you think you can't overcome the things that are in the future. Right. It makes me think of, you know, I went skydiving, which, to me, I acknowledge is so illogical.
Lily Werthan:It is an idiotic move. I've also been skydiving.
Jacob Gibson:I'm like what! I just don't I just...and terrifying, like, terrified of heights. And like, what an unnatural experience for a body, like a human body to just be dropped out of an airplane,
Lily Werthan:Right if there's a God, like, she probably didn't want us to do this.
Jacob Gibson:And so like, you know, I'm terrified of this...terrified of this concept, and I'm like, I'd never do it, I'd never do it. And then of course, as life is apt to do it, someone comes and asks me to go skydiving. And I'm like, oh my god like, you know, I should probably do this thing because I'm absolutely terrified of it. And you know, it was a whole spiritual experience, you know coming face to face with that intensity of fear, and completely screaming... like screaming so loud that, all you could do is scream. But after all that screaming then you're floating, and then eventually, you come back to the ground.
Lily Werthan:I was gonna say, I've seen I've seen pictures of this skydiving expedition and you look serene, you look like you're having an amazing time.
Jacob Gibson:And that was, again, just such a big metaphor for me, like, all these things ever that I'm so terrified of, I'm gonna come to a point where I'm really standing over them or looking at them, or I'm face to face with them. And I'm going to have to jump. And there may absolutely be some screaming involved. But I will make it through that experience. And this, this quality of floating, and the perspective that you have, on the other side of coming that close to your fear is like, it's just so expansive. And you just, you come back down, and then...and you continue on, you know, it's like, I knew I wasn't gonna die skydiving.
Lily Werthan:That's a good. Well you did sign a waiver, so you don't know for sure...
Jacob Gibson:You know, there is a difference between like trusting your gut in knowing that something is dangerous. Versus like, I'm just afraid of this thing, you know?
Lily Werthan:Right, like letting fear control your actions versus really listening to an intuitive signal of like, you shouldn't do this.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah. And there have absolutely been times where my guts like, Hey, Matt, you shouldn't go there, or it shouldn't be here. And that's an important voice to listen to, as well. But the fear, like it can teach us so much like, why am I afraid of this? What about this am I so afraid of? And I guess, like the ultimate fear for us, I'm sure is like death, you know, the ultimate not knowing. And that drives a lot of how we move through life, a fear of what happens when it all ends.
Lily Werthan:Yeah, but like you were talking about before, if you can take what is presenting itself in the energetic form of fear, and shift that towards curiosity or towards energy to explore...
Jacob Gibson:Exactly, exactly. And if that's the ultimate fear, like the ultimate collective fear, how can I use these other moments, to practice what it means to overcome fear? Like, I'm scared of heights, let me practice going sky. And just as a muscle, just like to remind myself that on the other side of fear is something pretty wonderful. And if I bring that into my life belief, then it allows me to move more fearlessly. I mean, I guess, or move more confidently. Feeling like there's there's something wonderful on the other side of it. I don't know if that makes sense.
Lily Werthan:Definitely makes sense to me. Jake, you're awesome. I'm so glad that you were in town...I mean, that you flew out specifically for this.
Jacob Gibson:Thank you. Thank you for flying me out here.
Lily Werthan:Yeah. Spread the word. I fly out my guests.
Jacob Gibson:Yeah. Thank you so much.
Lily Werthan:I honestly have like 1000 more things that I wanted to talk to you about. So to be repeated. If you're up for it. Maybe I'll come through LA sometime.
Jacob Gibson:That'd be great. I'd love to sit down again. And thank you so much. I'm so glad that you are taking this this leap. You know.
Lily Werthan:Yeah. Jumping out of this airplane.
Jacob Gibson:And that's, again, if we are if we are teachers to each other, what an important lesson for your life to be of just being able to listen to what your heart is calling you to do at any moment. You know..
Lily Werthan:Thank you. You really do bring a lot of light and a lot of fun.
Jacob Gibson:Well it's the same for you Lily. Real recognize
Lily Werthan:I love that. What a great place to end. real they say
Sign Off:Thank you for listening to this episode of the open exploration podcast. If you like what you heard, the absolute most helpful thing you can do is to share the podcast with a friend or on social media. You can also donate in the link under each episode description, or on our website open exploration.org This show is produced by me Lily Werthan. The voices that you'll hear at the very end are my four and five year old nephew and nieces. Thank you to Paddington Bear John sibh and the other unlisted artists for freely sharing your music that brings this podcast to life. And to all of you listening. Thank you love to you all. And until next time, happy exploring. THANKS FOR LISTENING!